Jun 7, 2020 · @supersonictl: Xeno Goku or the Time Patrollers being able to travel through and across time through sheer speed is honestly an Immeasurable speed feat. OT: Goku stomps 2 years ago Zamasu was once the Supreme Kai apprentice under Gowasu of Universe 10, who developed a loathing for mortals as he witnessed their actions across the universe, leading him to embark on a crusade against mortals after stealing the body of Son Goku using the Super Dragon Balls, gaining the title of Goku Black, or, as he is more commonly referred, simply Black. Tier: 2-C | 2-C | 2-C | 2-C | 2-C ...Something else about Goku's speed. He doesn't travel at the speed of light (or beyond). As a Super Saiyan 2, he fails to save Gohan, Piccolo, and the others before Buu's Death Ball blows up the planet. Someone flying at light speed could have saved them in addition to Dende and Hercule. Team 1: 5. Team 2: 4. The majority win Goes to Team 1 in r2. Xeno Goku vs Paper Mario. Paper Mario has better arsenal and strength than Xeno Goku. But Xeno Goku has better Durability, speed, and ...He has shown multiple feats of immeasurable speed. His skill turn null literally means that he can destroy the world that makes up the universe an infinite number of times (EOS). Rimuru does not only scale higher in attack, but speed too, and even if he isn’t stronger (which is false) he still has thousands more hax than Xeno Goku, in which ...All-Out Final Battle Super Saiyan God SS Goku & Super Saiyan God SS Vegeta; Infinite Sanctuary Fusion Zamasu; Resilient Will to Protect the Future Trunks (Teen) (Future)Jul 18, 2020 · Equalized speed gives Misogi a huge advantage, which helps him to hax Goku out of existence. All Fiction gg. 2 years ago. #26 kaoscrystals. @varricpatermann: iirc erasing someone at all planes of ... Xeno Goku is way more powerful than X1 Goku, he gets much stronger with pretty much every new episode, but we need a number. ... DBS Goku has a few "infinte speed" feats. Goku moved during a time ...The DB Heroes Universe is comprised of infinite histories, Universes, and Realties. Now, a Universe with infinite possibilities is 10D. Goku when transforming was threating to destroy all of those, and also beat Demigra in base who could destroy all of those. He's complex multiversal, nothing more, nothing less, and he still loses to anti-spiral. The fact that he can, as a SSj4, last any length of time against DBS SSj4 Goku is very impressive, likely putting him in the multi-universal range. Interestingly, Vegito: Xeno was able to do much better against Cumber than SSjB Goku and Vegeta, further suggesting that Goku: Xeno is fairly close to his godly counterpart. 5D.Super Saiyan Full Power. Potential Unleashed. Goku's Change. Goku's True Ultra Instinct (真身勝手の極意 Shin Migatte no Goku'i, lit. "The True Secret of the Self-centered") [2] is an emotionally-driven form of Ultra Instinct as well as an enhanced version of Ultra Instinct Sign unique to Goku. [3] [4] [5] Goku is the strongest mortal warrior in Universe 7 and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise, able to compete against seemingly any opponent. A prodigy of combat, he learned an extensive amount of combat while a young child and would continue to near-effortlessly learn practically any new technique he encountered. His natural talent for combat along with his unwavering drive ...The Superhero Database Classification number, or SHDB Class, is a number that represents the overall 'power' of a character. All traits of a character are used for calculating the Classification. The Q&A blog aside, let's explore some higher speed feats in Super Dragon Ball Heroes. Heroes Vegito kept up with a barrage of infinite attacks from Fu. Easy infinite speed feat. During the fight between Agios and UI Sign Capsule Corp Goku, Agios used passive precognition to dodge and foresee all of Goku's attacks.At some point in history, an alternative timeline version of Goku becomes a fundamental ally to the Time Patrol when he is recruited as a Time Patroller by the Supreme Kai of Time . Powers and Stats Tier: 2-A | 2-A | 2-A | 2-A Key: Dark Demon Realm Mission | Universe Mission | Big Bang Mission | Ultra God Mission No actually blue goku never fought xeno goku when he was using limit breaker super saiyan 4. (ssj4 with god ki added to the mix) They do fight but in the anime and manga the fight is never resolved but in the game blue goku takes it but the blue goku that fights xeno goku is not the same strength as the one who from super he’s just a goku that’s gone through the events of super but not the ...Son Goku is the main protagonist of the Dragon Ball metaseries. He is a Saiyan sent to Earth as a baby by his father Bardock to escape the destruction of the planet Vegeta and the Saiyan race. Adopted by Grandpa Gohan, he became a kind-hearted boy after he bumped his head, starting his great adventures from Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z. After defeating Kid Buu, Goku works as a radish farmer ...Super Saiyan Xeno Goku defeated both Demigra as well as Chamel. And SSJ3 Xeno Goku 1-shot Gravy who was equal with Demigra. And then SSJ4 Xeno Goku fought fairly evenly with Broly Dark who's able to 1-shot Demon God Towa, of which Towa's able to easily toss aside Super Saiyan Xeno Goku's Kamehameha. So in terms of the scaling above, we have:Xeno Goku vs The Flash (Barry Allen) Now I know normal Goku gets completely destroyed by the Flash, so I decided to throw the ridiculously powerful Xeno Goku from DB Heroes at him. Round 1: In Character. Round 2: Bloodlusted. Round 3: Xeno Vegito vs Wally West. Bonus Round: Timebreaker/Masked Goku Black vs Reverse Flash. This thread is archived.The DB Heroes Universe is comprised of infinite histories, Universes, and Realties. Now, a Universe with infinite possibilities is 10D. Goku when transforming was threating to destroy all of those, and also beat Demigra in base who could destroy all of those. He's complex multiversal, nothing more, nothing less, and he still loses to anti-spiral. For detailed information about this series from the Dragon Ball Wiki, you can click here. A kid named Son Goku grows up, trains to be a strong fighter, and eventually becomes the protector of the Earth along with his descendants: Gohan and Goten. Along the way, he makes powerful allies and even befriends former enemies such as Piccolo and Vegeta. He and the Z-Warriors fight evil, powerful ... why xeno goku isn't 2A or high 2A and doesn't has infinity speed? demigra can destroy the DBH multiverse (infinite timeline) and real world. xeno goku moved...At some point in history, an alternative timeline is born when Goku becomes a fundamental ally to the Time Patrol under the Supreme Kai of Time and takes a full-on job as a Time Patroller. Xeno Goku in this timeline performed the Super Saiyan God ritual and absorbed his "God Ki" into his various Super Saiyan transformations. Tiering: 2-A Verse: Dragon Ball Heroes Name: Son Goku "Xeno" Gender ... If yes, Accelerator can deflect that. If no, Goku stomps, and if that then the only way Accelerator wins is to somehow speedblitz him before the seal, given Accelerator can move at the speed of light. Xeno literal is infinitely faster than Accel. If Goku is faster than light, yes. Him being able to move within Stopped Time.Sep 6, 2021 · goku can use manga and anime feats. Dante can use game and lore feats. ... Xeno Goku even demonstrated a sealing technique other than it), Higher-Dimensional Existence or Beyond-Dimensional ... 0 speed feats in the fight with BB Doesn’t matter what 8D means. Sefar and Umbral Star both > Moon Cell and Sefar proceeded to get owned by Excalibur wielded by a random caveman on Earth when it came there after being done with the Moon Cell Early Dragon Ball Goku one-shots the whole settingToo bad that Shura's feat was specifically in combat.Too bad that your Goku has 0 speed feat outside travel speed . Countless is as litteral as its said in the manga, it explained that countless universes were destroyed. That Goku would be Universal (that I doubt) is meaningless because countless Universes/Multiversal level >>>>>Universal.Not too sure about Anti-Spiral and his “11-D” so for now I’m going Xeno Goku by feats and hax. 2 years ago. deactivated-60a965c6d6754. Follow 791. Forum Posts. 0. Wiki Points. 0 ...The real cal howard said: Not really. Whis's speed calc isn't from crossing the universe but from going to Beerus's place to earth. It doesn't change at all, iirc (though I could be wrong). iirc, Earth and Beerus' Nebula are in different sides of the universe so an increased universe size would apply to it.This was implicitly chosen as true by the DBH anime : in episode 1, Xeno SSJ4 Goku and SSB Goku have a short skirmish, which concludes as a tie. Granted, their fight didn't last and they didn't go all out, but this can be interpreted as the anime deciding those forms are roughly equal.Xeno Goku is a multiversal++ character with borderline immeasurable speed, considering the fact that he can cross whole timelines in instants. He has the Keysword, which can seal higher dimensional characters by stripping them of their power, and can call a multiversal+ reality warper at his service...Super Shenron says hi . We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. Not too sure about Anti-Spiral and his “11-D” so for now I’m going Xeno Goku by feats and hax. 2 years ago. deactivated-60a965c6d6754. Follow 791. Forum Posts. 0. Wiki Points. 0 ...Apr 12, 2021. #1. Can anyone send me the scans to the following feats from Xeno Goku ? I dont find them anywhere. We should add the scans to the profile .. " Life-Force Absorption (Using "Draw", he can damage opponents by sucking out their life energy, which he can then use to heal himself)"That's not what I meant, while yes he technically has better forms, his feats are worse. Because in the Manga him and Beerus were only threatening the world of the living, rather than all three universe sized constructs in universe 7. Manga Goku also lacks the feat of shaking the world of void. He also has worse speed feats than Anime Goku.Attack Potency Feats: - Defeated Giant form Demigra in base form, Demigra in Xenoverse 1 was capable of destroying the entire DBH cosmology. - Could have passively affected all of time by simply transforming, as implied by Chronoa. - Combated Charmel who was capable of collapsing the entire Multiverse by his mere presence. Nov 21, 2018 · why xeno goku isn't 2A or high 2A and doesn't has infinity speed? demigra can destroy the DBH multiverse (infinite timeline) and real world. xeno goku moved... Goku is the strongest mortal warrior in Universe 7 and one of the most powerful characters in the franchise, able to compete against seemingly any opponent. A prodigy of combat, he learned an extensive amount of combat while a young child and would continue to near-effortlessly learn practically any new technique he encountered. His natural talent for combat along with his unwavering drive ...Apr 16, 2019 · Being able to move on an temporal axis despite your physical body existing on a 3-dimensional plane. Goku and Vegeta survived outside the flow of time- but havi. Now that we have discussed the understand of Being/Range of Motion/Destructive Capacity. Let us dive deeper into the feats and understand of Dragon Ball lore. Xeno Goku vs The Flash (Barry Allen) Now I know normal Goku gets completely destroyed by the Flash, so I decided to throw the ridiculously powerful Xeno Goku from DB Heroes at him. Round 1: In Character. Round 2: Bloodlusted. Round 3: Xeno Vegito vs Wally West. Bonus Round: Timebreaker/Masked Goku Black vs Reverse Flash. This thread is archived.He has shown multiple feats of immeasurable speed. His skill turn null literally means that he can destroy the world that makes up the universe an infinite number of times (EOS). Rimuru does not only scale higher in attack, but speed too, and even if he isn’t stronger (which is false) he still has thousands more hax than Xeno Goku, in which ... Too bad that Shura's feat was specifically in combat.Too bad that your Goku has 0 speed feat outside travel speed . Countless is as litteral as its said in the manga, it explained that countless universes were destroyed. That Goku would be Universal (that I doubt) is meaningless because countless Universes/Multiversal level >>>>>Universal. Nov 21, 2018 · why xeno goku isn't 2A or high 2A and doesn't has infinity speed? demigra can destroy the DBH multiverse (infinite timeline) and real world. xeno goku moved... Zamasu was once the Supreme Kai apprentice under Gowasu of Universe 10, who developed a loathing for mortals as he witnessed their actions across the universe, leading him to embark on a crusade against mortals after stealing the body of Son Goku using the Super Dragon Balls, gaining the title of Goku Black, or, as he is more commonly referred, simply Black. Tier: 2-C | 2-C | 2-C | 2-C | 2-C ...The xenoverse games happen in the heroes timeline. Somewhere. In XV2, Mira is considered as powerful as Beerus The Destroyer when he merges with Towa. Super Saiyan Blue Goku is powerful enough to be a major help, and can deal a killing blow to Mira. This means SSB Goku is near the level of Beerus, and FPSS Broly.The xenoverse games happen in the heroes timeline. Somewhere. In XV2, Mira is considered as powerful as Beerus The Destroyer when he merges with Towa. Super Saiyan Blue Goku is powerful enough to be a major help, and can deal a killing blow to Mira. This means SSB Goku is near the level of Beerus, and FPSS Broly.Xeno Goku will be scaled to 7 layers into high outerversal. Note: Trascending time is different form trascending time conceptually which is a outerversal feat. Trascending time is 5D and trascending the concept of time is outerversal. MagnificentSasquatch • 4 mo. ago. You don't seem to understand. DBS Goku stand at Low Multiversal+ with MFTL+ speed (baseline 67 sextillion faster than light). With highball, you can put him at at some very little degree of Immeasurable or Infinite but it's nothing. Xeno Goku is at High Complex Multiverse+ with Immeasurable speed.If you think there is a better material I should use, just tell me. Mass: 645,947.5 kg or 645.9 Tonnes (Class K) Mass (Steel): 1,890,864.5 kg or 1890.86 Tonnes (Class M) Just like the above feat, there is still one more step left. The tournament simulates the gravity of each fighter's birth planet, meaning Planet Vegeta for Goku.Superman level telepathy isnt strong when xeno goku is casually fighting multiversal threats in base. Aquamans telepathy isnt on MMH level? And none of the scans you have shown are aquamans. You showed me a scan of MMH saying its a little bit difficult to use his skills on their minds. Xeno goku has infinite speed. Able to travel through time.There's nothing much Xenoverse 2 brings up in terms of a massive jump in power, however we get more statements to back up feats performed in Xenoverse 1. In Xenoverse 2 Demigra had control over all of time and space as shown here. While this does not increase his current rating, it does however further that he scales to the cosmology. Also Xeno Goku has immeasurable speed. He also is pretty haxxed: Dimensional Domain (Reduces opponents stamina to 1. Works on even androids who have infinite stamina and it's a passive hax ...孫 そん 悟空 ごくう ：ゼノ Son Gokū: Zeno Alias Goku: Xeno Kakarot Red Goku (by Fu) Time Patrol Goku Debuts Appears in Manga Debut "Dispatch! Time Patrol" Anime Debut "Goku vs. Goku! A Transcendent Battle Begins on the Prison Planet!" Characteristics Race Saiyan Gender Male HeightMay 27, 2016 · 3. Zeno has the ability to obliterate all of the universes but apart from that, battle power & strength, he is nothing. Destructive feat scaling is fallacious and leads to people claiming "multiverse" durability or destructive power to the main heroes when that has never been implied at all. All-Out Final Battle Super Saiyan God SS Goku & Super Saiyan God SS Vegeta; Infinite Sanctuary Fusion Zamasu; Resilient Will to Protect the Future Trunks (Teen) (Future)The DB Heroes Universe is comprised of infinite histories, Universes, and Realties. Now, a Universe with infinite possibilities is 10D. Goku when transforming was threating to destroy all of those, and also beat Demigra in base who could destroy all of those. He's complex multiversal, nothing more, nothing less, and he still loses to anti-spiral. Zen'ō (全王, literally King of All) is the king of all of the twelve universes in the Dragon Ball multiverse. Although child-like in appearance and personality, his power is feared by even the Angels and the Gods of Destruction, having destroyed six of the original eighteen universes in a fit of anger. Tier: 2-C Name: Zen'ō Origin: Dragon Ball Gender: Male Age: Unknown Classification: God ...Feb 4, 2021 · Xeno Goku is overrated fodder. Almost as much as Fodder Piece. OT: He is multiversal scaling from game feats, but many are too mentally inept to actually know them and base themselves on just the ... Goku is universal because of Jiren. Let me explain. Beerus and Champa fighting would destroy two universes, Beerus would do half or over half of this damage and as we all know Jiren>Beerus. 0. Lengdary bloody · 9/7/2020. According to theory and ybkk ssb Goku can destroy the whole universe 50x times over. 1.Velocity = Distance / Time. Velocity = 5.67643828354848e+29 meters / 10^-36. Velocity = 5.6764383e+65 m/s. To now get his speed in comparison to the speed of light, we simply divide his speed in m/s, by light's speed in m/s. Convert that to the speed of light by dividing his speed over the speed of light in m/s.DBS Goku stand at Low Multiversal+ with MFTL+ speed (baseline 67 sextillion faster than light). With highball, you can put him at at some very little degree of Immeasurable or Infinite but it's nothing. Xeno Goku is at High Complex Multiverse+ with Immeasurable speed.Mar 8, 2018 · 1:Its true though. 2:Its true. 3:Yes he does he literally is the Goku from the story mode. 4:Yes they do, they reflect what happens in the plot and power escalatio isn't as drastic as it was in the original missions. Your entire argument in a nutshell is just ad hominem and strawman ontop of appeal to emotion. Shrekisomnipotent22 • 9 mo. ago. It's not that I'm lowballing Goku, it's just that Prime is that fucking broken. Xeno Goku is Multiversal+ and possibly immeasurable while Superboy Prime is outerversal with irrelevant speed. Funnily enough post crisis/Rebirth superman vs Xeno Goku is actually a close fight. Fierce Battle for Space and Time Super Saiyan Goku (Xeno) | Dragon Ball Z Dokkan Battle Wiki | Fandom. in: UR, PHY, Super PHY, and 6 more. While Xeno Vegito SSJ4 failed to dodge all of his attacks but UI Goku easily dodged all of them) Durability: At least Universe+ || High Multiverse+ (Tanked a direct attack from Kami Oren) Speed: At least TransUniversal || TransUniversalx Range: At least Universe+ || High Multiverse+ with ki blasts Stamina: At least very High. Goku can train for ...Here are a few examples of Goku's reaction abilities: This is relatively solid evidence of Goku's ability to dodge and reflect bullets. notice in the second one that Goku is actually looking at ...So Just How Fast Is Goku? Image via Toei Animation. Thanks to a Quora user and their meticulous calculations, it’s determined that Goku can move at a top speed of 334630130.9588907361 mph when ...Also Xeno Goku has immeasurable speed. He also is pretty haxxed: Dimensional Domain (Reduces opponents stamina to 1. Works on even androids who have infinite stamina and it's a passive hax ...Goku speed blitzes so no diff. Goku should easily have similar AP to her via the Beerus clash feat and SSG multipliers (mid diff) and can be argued to be higher dimensional (no diff). While she does have way of bypassing durability Goku outspeeds to a massive degree. SSBKK Goku was able to keep up with Hit’s time skip giving a low amount of ... Too bad that Shura's feat was specifically in combat.Too bad that your Goku has 0 speed feat outside travel speed . Countless is as litteral as its said in the manga, it explained that countless universes were destroyed. That Goku would be Universal (that I doubt) is meaningless because countless Universes/Multiversal level >>>>>Universal. Xeno Goku will be scaled to 7 layers into high outerversal. Note: Trascending time is different form trascending time conceptually which is a outerversal feat. Trascending time is 5D and trascending the concept of time is outerversal. MagnificentSasquatch • 4 mo. ago. You don't seem to understand. The Superhero Database Classification number, or SHDB Class, is a number that represents the overall 'power' of a character. All traits of a character are used for calculating the Classification. Another power scaling feat is the supreme Kai of time can casually merge timelines, destroy timelines and universes, she’s basically Zeno to Zeno and she’s considered like really trash, 95% of dragon ball heroes villains and heroes can one shot all of super including Zeno and xeno goku can take them all out in base unless it’s a heavy ... May 14, 2020 · Hakai ignores conventional durability, as well as Goku, so he can also destroy your atoms. Yes, Trunks can reduce you and your atoms. Goku has Immeasurable Speed, Hades hasn't peformed a feat ... Apr 11, 2021 · Not too sure about Anti-Spiral and his “11-D” so for now I’m going Xeno Goku by feats and hax. 2 years ago. deactivated-60a965c6d6754. Follow 791. Forum Posts. 0. Wiki Points. 0 ... Another power scaling feat is the supreme Kai of time can casually merge timelines, destroy timelines and universes, she’s basically Zeno to Zeno and she’s considered like really trash, 95% of dragon ball heroes villains and heroes can one shot all of super including Zeno and xeno goku can take them all out in base unless it’s a heavy ...Son Goku (DB Xenoverse) VS Darkseid (DC Comics) . Starting Distance: 10m. Fight Location: Tournament of Power Arena. Both in-character. Equalized speed. 2-A Darkseid and Goku starts in Base form with access to your transformations. Goku will have access to Keysword. Goku: 2 ( @God900, @sanicspood) Darkseid:Biography. Xeno Goku's life is almost identical to the canon version but has gone through the events of Lord Slug, Fusion Reborn as well as the events of Dragon Ball GT. He even encountered Broly (Dragon Ball Z) at some point in his life. Unlike the original Fusion Reborn, Xeno Goku wasn't dead during the event but was later killed by Towa then ...Xeno Goku also has Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan 4 to stack ontop of his Super Saiyan form and has grown stronger over time in the plot of DBH, to my knowledge. CC Goku is even stronger than Xeno Goku, having an edge over even SS4 Xeno Goku when in Super Saiyan Blue and, due to being based on Goku in DBS, has access to Kaio-Ken X20 Blue. No actually blue goku never fought xeno goku when he was using limit breaker super saiyan 4. (ssj4 with god ki added to the mix) They do fight but in the anime and manga the fight is never resolved but in the game blue goku takes it but the blue goku that fights xeno goku is not the same strength as the one who from super he’s just a goku that’s gone through the events of super but not the ...Attack Potency Feats: - Defeated Giant form Demigra in base form, Demigra in Xenoverse 1 was capable of destroying the entire DBH cosmology. - Could have passively affected all of time by simply transforming, as implied by Chronoa. - Combated Charmel who was capable of collapsing the entire Multiverse by his mere presence.
Nov 21, 2018 · why xeno goku isn't 2A or high 2A and doesn't has infinity speed? demigra can destroy the DBH multiverse (infinite timeline) and real world. xeno goku moved... . 141 26 northern boulevard
he scales above xeno goku who was high outer due to the real world transcending feat, the same xeno goku that beat demigra in base form with ease, a character who wasnt only about to destroy the infinite timelines and infinite multiverses within dragon ball, but the real world as well. he also threatened ALL of time simply by powering up into super saiyan 4, the same one that needs a parallel ...Xeno Goku also has Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan 4 to stack ontop of his Super Saiyan form and has grown stronger over time in the plot of DBH, to my knowledge. CC Goku is even stronger than Xeno Goku, having an edge over even SS4 Xeno Goku when in Super Saiyan Blue and, due to being based on Goku in DBS, has access to Kaio-Ken X20 Blue. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us.Sep 7, 2020 · 1. Lengdary bloody · 9/7/2020. If Goku was faster than light as a kid then with super Saiyan blue vegeta could go to mars and get back to earth in seconds. What geekdom defined was because of the resilans of sayians should give them longer time to survive in space without their super Saiyan. 1. May 20, 2021 · 2,317. May 21, 2021. #63. Honestly Goku speed is just Inapplicable. The fact that goku can move in timeless voids or areas outside of time or places where time doesn't exist already makes the speed formula Inapplicable for goku since speed is Distance/Time but time isn't a factor for goku since he can move without the presence of time. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. 3. Zeno has the ability to obliterate all of the universes but apart from that, battle power & strength, he is nothing. Destructive feat scaling is fallacious and leads to people claiming "multiverse" durability or destructive power to the main heroes when that has never been implied at all.Nov 21, 2018 · why xeno goku isn't 2A or high 2A and doesn't has infinity speed? demigra can destroy the DBH multiverse (infinite timeline) and real world. xeno goku moved... 1:Its true though. 2:Its true. 3:Yes he does he literally is the Goku from the story mode. 4:Yes they do, they reflect what happens in the plot and power escalatio isn't as drastic as it was in the original missions. Your entire argument in a nutshell is just ad hominem and strawman ontop of appeal to emotion.At some point in history, an alternative timeline is born when Goku becomes a fundamental ally to the Time Patrol under the Supreme Kai of Time and takes a full-on job as a Time Patroller. Xeno Goku in this timeline performed the Super Saiyan God ritual and absorbed his "God Ki" into his various Super Saiyan transformations. Tiering: 2-A Verse: Dragon Ball Heroes Name: Son Goku "Xeno" Gender ...2,317. May 21, 2021. #63. Honestly Goku speed is just Inapplicable. The fact that goku can move in timeless voids or areas outside of time or places where time doesn't exist already makes the speed formula Inapplicable for goku since speed is Distance/Time but time isn't a factor for goku since he can move without the presence of time..